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Not Apathetic

Tell the world why you're not voting - don't let your silence go unheard

They're not voting because...

I am sick to death of the Scottish whining...

I am sick to death of the Scottish whining. I won't vote for any party dominated by another countries citizens. I voted Lib Dem under Paddy Ashdown but cant bring myself to vote for the current, instantly forgettable, person.

Put an English leader with an English cabinet on display with pro-English and European policies and I will vote for them.

written 18th Apr 2005


NC replies: Paddy Ashdown is from Northern Ireland you racist, pompous, ill-informed English buffoon!!

written 18th Apr 2005

NRT replies: Oh dear; that foot's well and truly shot....

No, Paddy A. wasn't Scottish, but Charles K. is!

Other than that, I fully endorse your response.

written 18th Apr 2005

Tom Cochrane replies: The original post wrote - "I am sick to death of the Scottish whining..."
Can you give any examples of this?

written 21st Apr 2005

tiger43 replies: Plenty, there bad losers in football. The English support them against other teams but they can`t bring themselves to support Enland, against say Germany. Any sport, anything in life. You name it the Scottish are allways against us and that probably goes for just about every other country in the world. And I don`t think its much to do with hate, no, much more its pure envy of what this little country has achieved over the centuries. And don`t give me what England has done to the Irish and Scottish in the past, because England has taken more than its fair share of attacks, invasions in the past and bombings more recently. Wev`e forgivon the Vikings, Normans, Romans you name it and we just get on with things. So why can`t everyone else do the same? Go on, be devils and support England, one of the home nations, in a footy match.

written 21st Apr 2005

Pete the Punk replies: I've always admired the English and can well understand your being "sick to death of the Scottish whining" - so am I. As a nation, we are grossly undeserving of the endless favour flowing from south of the border and can't even bring ourselves to properly express the gratitude due for relieving us of our liberty all those years ago. More recently, your largesse has taken the form of a blessed relief from the burden of administrating our oil revenues - how can we ever thank you?

written 21st Apr 2005

dave replies: Oh, I didn't realise the Scots owned the North Sea.

And thanks for reminding me of something that happened hundreds of years ago and has nothing to do with me or my family or anyone else alive today.

But I guess your points do explain why a bunch of Glaswegian fuck-heads were right to leave my brother with a shattered kneecap and permanent facial scars.

You whining cock.

written 21st Apr 2005

Tom Cochrane replies: Dave -

If Scotland were an independent nation it would have mineral rights over a section of the North Sea - just as Norway etc have at the present.

Sorry to hear about your brother - sounds awful.
Not sure that a violent attack would be less likely elsewhere in the UK - whatever the reason.

Still not sure where the whinning or whinging comes into any of this.

written 22nd Apr 2005

Tom Cochrane replies: tiger43 - I'm not convinced that any of your examples actually mean anything.

Quote: "You name it the Scottish are allways against us and that probably goes for just about every other country in the world."

Sounds a little bit unbalanced. (in all senses).

written 22nd Apr 2005

Tiger43 replies: To Tom....It means that England has had its share of being kicked about a bit by other countries. And instead of the obvious dislike other nations including the home ones tend to have for us, we get on. In other words as the above post is saying, stop whinging, especially at us and get your own assemblies in order and argue with your own politicians to get what you want. If England is lucky enough to get a complete break away from the rest of the Isles, perhaps only then you`ll stop moaning at us.

written 22nd Apr 2005

dave replies: The UK government earns roughly 12bn tax per annum on North Sea oil and gas production, which is what is being argued about.

So scottish mineral rights and the tax therefrom would earn you a maximum of $4bn per annum, and that's a very generous maximum. The gas fields are nowhere near Scotland, most of the oil fields are equidistant between Norway and Scotland. Now, what's the net tax revenue flow from South of the Border to North of the border. I'd wager it's more than 4bn.

Maybe you should stop wasting money on your parliamentary buildings, for example.

Personally I 'd like to see the UK (and most other European countries) split into smaller more cohesive regions and the whole lot of us working together towards a better Europe.

Oh, and I doubt that that my brother would have been beaten for being English in England. I know violent bigoted attacks are a sadly endemic feature of the modern world, but many Scots are incredibly racist the English folk, frequently violently so.

written 22nd Apr 2005

Sandra replies: I can not believe this thread. A website which should be an interisting discussion about apathy has turned into a ridiculous xenophobic slagging match. I dont think its a particularly affective debating method to pick on an individual violent act to sum up a nation (incidentally violence is a common misconception about Glasgow, having lived there for over 20 years in various parts I have found it to be friendly and welcoming). I also think that if you'd been bothered to ask any of the Scottish nation about the parliment building they would be much more angry about the wasteful expenditure than you. I do however agree about the rise of nationalism in Scotland, which saddens and quite frankly scares me occasionally, but I assure you not everyone is like this, but if you could just stop banging on about 1966 and Johnny Wilkinson for 5 bloody minutes then we might all just get along better!

written 22nd Apr 2005

Tiger43 replies: To Sandra.....At last, the feminine touch, just what us blokes all need, if you know what I mean lol.

written 22nd Apr 2005

Anonymous replies: I couldn't believe this when I read this but Glasgow is the safest city in the UK and one of the safest in the world. I live in Glasgow and on the news the only ever focus on violence here. Besides you can't possibly say that Glasgow is worse than Nottingham.

Tiger43 the Rangers fans support England, they're even selling England tops in their stores now.

written 22nd Apr 2005

Joe replies: "Plenty, there [sic] bad losers in football"

Hmm Tiger43, when was the last time you saw Scottish fans hurling garden furniture around the streets when they lost a match? What's that? Never?

...and when was the last time you saw the English hooligans do such a thing? What's that? Every tournament?

I suggest you read this well written article from a disgruntled England fan, then think again.

written 22nd Apr 2005

Tom Cochrane replies: To Dave.
A bit of an old chestnut.
The specific economic arguments about oil and gas revenues are quite circular. I find it hard to believe any of the doom laden arguments from Labour and Tory's regarding 'black holes' in a Scottish economy.
All opposition parties looking to take power have a similar size of a 'black hole' in the economic prospectus - no big deal. It is filled with changes in taxation and spending. Look at the Lib Dem and Tory manifestos.

The parliamentary building was chosen and the contract signed by Westminister (the worst contract in the history of public buildings). The changes to the design required for anti-terrorism measures and the overspend determined by the specific contract type account for the 70 million over budget the building went.
An average shoipping centre costs between 100 - 200 million. Webley will cost almost 1 billion.
Large scale public building projects are expensive.

Indeed I am disgusted that your brother was beated up for being English. Very sad and moronic behaviour - but wouldn't it be just as likely elsewhere for so other stupid reason. "are you looking at my bird". Anyone looking to do harm to others will always find an exuse.
It doesn't make it the norm. (or remotely acceptable).

written 22nd Apr 2005

Tom Cochrane replies: To Tiger 43 -
Football as nationalism is a very limited argument.
For istance when do Man City fans cheer when Man U lift another cup? Or Everton when Liverpool were the Red Machine. Not often.
The respective footbball teams are rivals in an international competative set up.
Just the way fans minds work.
(yes I know that Scotland has a crap team - The Vatican City have just moved ahead of them in the FIFA rankings)

written 22nd Apr 2005

Peter replies: Dave -

I don't accept any of your ecconomic arguments at all.
For the last 20 years Scotland was 24 billion in surplus, while the UK was 410 billion in deficit.
Most European countries exist in deficit - does that mean they can't be independent?

The myth that Scotland is subsidised by England has long been perpetuated by the Tories and Labour, as propaganda designed to undermine arguments for Independence. It is simply an offensive lie.

written 23rd Apr 2005

Archie replies: No one seems to be commenting on the original post from NRT.

When are they coming back into this thread?

1) - "I won't vote for any party dominated by another countries citizens."
In a UK election Scots aren't citizens of another country. Is this news to you?

2) - "Put an English leader with an English cabinet on display with pro-English and European policies and I will vote for them."
A national parliament is a positive aspiration - why do you place you comments in such an abusive and negative way?

written 23rd Apr 2005

Pete the Punk replies: Fuck this - I'm off to watch Football Focus!

written 23rd Apr 2005

Jacqueline Thomson replies: Until Scotland is fully independant then Scottish people have a right to have representation in the UK parliament. Scotland only has a devolved parliament which means that there are matters that are still ruled from Westminster.

Scottish means British and at the end of the day until Westminster becomes completely English you can have British MP's with Scottish accents in paliament.

Also I am Scottish but have been living in South East England for about 18 months. Since I pay taxes in this area I have a right to say what goes on in this area and comment on it. I am tempted to get into politics and feel it is sad that I wouldn't be taken seriously on the basis of accent alone. Smacks of racism to me but then I guess that wouldn't be noticed since we share the same skin tone.


written 23rd Apr 2005

William replies: The original post -

Must feel very disenfranchised and frustrated.
"I won't vote for any party dominated by another countries citizens."
"Put an English leader with an English cabinet on display with pro-English and European policies and I will vote for them."

The only pary in the UK that would provide this is the SNP. An independent Scotland would lead de facto to an independent England (Wales would not be far behind). N.I would reamain the same problem it always was.

An English parliament is not on the agenda. That is just a fact.

written 23rd Apr 2005

Pete the Punk replies: In the interests of fairness, I must point out that a Kasabian gig at Glasgow Carling Academy on Friday was halted when the guitarist was struck on the head by a bottle flung from the audience, receiving a wound necessitating six stitches.

written 24th Apr 2005

Frank replies: Pete The Punk - Yes Pete he was hit with an empty Plastic water bottle by a travelling Dutch fan.
No Blood and no stitches.

Full report here by eye witnesses.
The enpty bottle was thrown as they were miming instead of playing live.

Poor little lad

written 24th Apr 2005

Pete the Punk replies: Hey Frank - it says here it was a Buckfast bottle. Sounds reasonable, especially in a venue selling English pish instead of proper lager, don't you think? As to the band miming... serves 'em right then!

written 24th Apr 2005

Frank replies: I will have you know that Carling is brewed in a fine industrial estate in the heart of merry old England. Isn't 'Buckfast' a fine English tonic wine?

What Scottish industrial estate is your Scottish pish brewed?

Anyway as this site is about apathy in voting it only seems right to return to the over -riding theme.
The apathy of the rest of the audience who have paid 20 (a guess) for a ticket each and are happy to listen to a band miming. That says a lot more about society that the one tosser (of the bottle).

written 25th Apr 2005

dave replies: So what is being suggested is that English voters should move to Scotland and vote SNP - then move back to an independant England.

I wonder? Would that actualy work?

written 26th Apr 2005

Laura replies: Economically Scotland can not survive without England. English taxes pay for scottish, free eye tests and health care for the elderly. in england we have more people but each person based on a theory i cant quite remeber the name of biggining with b every Scot gets roughly 50p per head more then the English, it doesnt sound much but it works up to billions.
another issue i dont agree on is why when there is devolution and the scottish parliament gets to decide on issues such as health and education, they can then come to westminster and vote on english issues to do with the same thing. we dont send english mps to introsuce unpopular bills in scotland. the only reason england has top up fees (which was only won by four votes) is because labour forced the scottish mps to vote pro top-up fees when they kne it was not going to affect them. i think this is an outrage, scotland takes our taxes, and then votes to introduce bills like that. i would prefer if scotland was independant, not so that they could be a proud nation kicking off the oppressors but so that england could gets its independance back from a nation of leaches. (ps. i have nothing against scottish people individually, i just dont like it politically). i think in the next few years if this trend of scottish mps voting on issues that should be none of their buisness continues, then a new English nationalism will strongly develop and you might find your brilliant scotland having to use its tax raising powers, and taking away your educational and health rights, because us english will no longer allow you to be subsadised in order to shut you up about your independance. - hope that made sense.

written 26th Apr 2005

William replies: Laura - you certainly made sense. Unfortunately almost all of what you said was untrue.

1) - Economically Scotland can not survive without England.

This is a totally discredited argument (and has been for quite a while).
For the last 20 years Scotland was 24 billion in surplus, while the UK was 410 billion in deficit.
Most European countries exist in deficit - does that mean they can't be independent?

The myth that Scotland is subsidised by England has long been perpetuated by the Tories and Labour, as propaganda designed to undermine arguments for Independence. It is simply an offensive lie.

Scotland contributes more than it recieves.

2) - The Barnett formula.

Commentators often talk about the Barnett formula, by which public spending is allocated to different parts of the UK, as evidence that Scotland gets a good deal.
In fact, the Barnett formula is designed to ensure that public spending goes up by less in Scotland than it does in the UK as a whole. For instance, a 10% increase in public expenditure on relevant English programmes will yield, via Barnett, only an 8.1% increase in the money which the Scottish Parliament is allocated to spend in those areas. That's what is meant by the "Barnett Squeeze".

The time when Scotland recieved more per head of population is in reverse. And going back to point one Scotland has always been a bet contributor to the UK economy - contributing more than it receives.

Devolution, which aimed to allow for divergence between the way government operates in Scotland and the rest of the UK, is in fact constrained by a formula which is designed to ensure a convergence in government spending.

Though the unionist parties are keen to talk about spending in Scotland, they are less keen to admit to what Scotland pays the UK Treasury every year. That's why the Scottish Parliament should control all taxes raised in Scotland.

3)- Scottish M.P's voting on English business.
Indded this is another example of Westminister compromises.
SNP M.P's have always abstained on such distinct business. Labour M.P.s have horsetraded.

The majority of Wesminister business covers area that is of UK consideration (vastly outweighs the list of areas covered by Hollyrood).

written 26th Apr 2005

Dr. Mabuse replies: Sandra, a lot of people seem to have the impression that Glasgow is not a violent or unpleasant place - but I would respectfully suggest that these people have rarely ventured east of George Square. I live and work in the East End, and I can honestly say that I see some form of extremely anti-social behaviour almost every single day. You only have to read the GEN to realise that someone is stabbed or shot or burned out of their home at least once a fortnight.

written 27th Apr 2005

William replies: So that makes it an average modern British city then.

What is the GEN?

written 27th Apr 2005

Thomas Cochrane replies: Glasgow - I have lived there for 43 years.

It is a wonderland place - with candy floss trees and lollipop bushes. Ten pound notes fall from the bright blue sky and the sun always shines. The rose cheeked people have a merry quip with each other in the morning as they go off to work in Santas workshop.

written 27th Apr 2005

Dr. Mabuse replies: GEN = Glasgow East End News (the local free paper).

written 27th Apr 2005

Adam replies: I'm surprised that Scotland doesn't depend on England economically. However, as I am lacking a shred of evidence to the contrary, I will have to take it as a fact.

It is one of the great ironies that England's 'invasion' of the other parts of the UK has led to England losing its identity whilst others have retained theirs. There are posts elsewhere on this site looking for an equivalent of the SNP for England and the only sensible suggestion I have seen is for everyone to vote for the SNP and Plaid Cymru and to give Northern Ireland back to the Irish.

So, all non-English voters, please vote for your 'nationalist' party and give us our freedom.

Thank you.

written 27th Apr 2005

Adam replies: Sorry to jump in again, but I'm not aware of any Scottish 'whining' either. A bit of banter about the football is hardly a revolution.

And, as well as being 'procured' by Westminster, the Scottish Parliament was built by an Australian company (and designed by a Spanish architect). Probably the only Scots involved were the poor bastards trying to build the thing.

written 27th Apr 2005

Tiger43 replies: To Jo......Your`e guite right of course, English hooligans are a disgrace and Scottish fans are angels. I have never seen Scottish football fans hurling furniture, they prefer knives instead.

written 27th Apr 2005

Jen replies: This is pathetic!! What a dumb ass post to make! Yes, I AM Scottish and the racism going on here is absolutely abdurd!

In reply to some posts on here:

The one about us being "bad losers" in football, what trash. Why should we support you? Thats like saying we should support Ireland etc. too. Who gives a crap about football anyway?! Get a life!! To say all the English suppport us is definate rubbish - Most of my friends are English and all of them playfully slag of Scotland all the time! Yet I know deep down they really dont support us!! Yes... we've gone against every other country.... Uh huh.... weirdo. Envy? Of what?! We are a proud country who love our country, trust me, us Scots arent envious of anything you have. We have a beautiful country with friendly people. What more do we need?

We dont whine, we stand up for our rights. What do you lot do? Well, for one thing you abuse Scotland? For example, wind farms! You English are slapping the ugly things up all over our stunning countryside (which Im sure your envious off.....) yet wont put them up where you are because you know youd be met with massibve complaints!! We complain and we get told we're "whining".

To the guy who slagged of Glaswegiens because they beat up his brother - Mate, seriously dont be so pathetic. You think we're all like that?? really? You think your ANY less likely to get beaten up in England??? In London your more likely to get murdered for christs sake.

To the guy who said he wouldnt vote for a party dominated by another coutrys citizen. Get over yourself!!! We are expected to vote for YOUR bloody English parties!! Is that fair?? No, so dont you dare WINGE back!

I love my country and wouldnt swop it for anything. The people here are wonderful, helpful and friendly. Some English on here are slagging us off for being racist, yet they are! I often visit the USA and I must say when I mention Im from Scotland they always say how wonderful our country is and how friendly the people are here. Some Americans have then commented how quiet and beautiful it is compared to built up, busy England. So to those English who do not happen to like us. Get a life because many in other countries prefer us to you!

Im sure there will always be England V Scotland, but lets not start fires here.

written 27th Apr 2005

Tiger43 replies: To Jen.....Finished your rant?, and you didn`t even take breath. How Scottish. So the rest of the world likes Scotland more than England. Well, thats probably because Scotland has never done anything worth mentioning in its history for anyone to dislike you. Youv`e kept yourselves conveniently well in the background. Perhaps if it did, you might get some flak. A beautiful country to visit though, period.

written 27th Apr 2005

Al replies: Oh I wish the American's liked us that much. I hope they don't all decide to go on holiday in your, far more picturesque country, instead of ours.

On the issue of wind farms, I'd be happy to have wind farms near my house, I think they look brilliant! I've heard lots of people say the same.
Even if you dont like the look of them, they're providing electricity for your home so they aren't all bad. It's always the same with some people, "not on my doorstep"! Yet I doubt you'd be against environmentally friendly methods of energy production as a whole. Scotland has lots of hills, it's mostly hills and so obviously your in a prime position for wind farms, also there are less people in scotland to get pissed off and winge about them.

written 27th Apr 2005

Tom Cochrane replies: I feel most of this sort of reciprocal abuse is completely fruitless. Not to mention purile.

Scotland doesn't have a devolved Parliament because it is 'pretty", or the people are 'friendly'.
It has it because there was an overlap between a popular movement and a opportunist Labour Government.

International perceptions of "Scotland" may at times be more positive but that is normally because there was little mention of Scotland outwith the Union. Indeed I have found many people in foreign lands who are confused as to exactly where Scotland is.

I think that in terms of its contribution to British history and culture Scotland has always held its own.
The difficulty is always knowing how to seperate the British from the individual nations. A bit like a load of washing that has had a red tee shirt left in. Once it is all dyed in a pale pink.

Wind farms and renewable energy are a completely seperate issue and one that doesn't just effect Scotland.

written 27th Apr 2005

Halal Al Buqarak replies: Most of the whinging here seems to be from English people.

Come on chaps get a grip rather than a gripe

written 30th Apr 2005

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NotApathetic was built so that people who are planning not to vote in the UK General Election on May 5th can tell the world why. We won't try to persuade you that voting is a good or a bad idea - we're just here to record and share your explanations. Whether ideological, practical or other, any reason will do.

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