They're not voting because...
- I am not voting because I have no faith...
I am not voting because I have no faith in any party - All governments continually fail to deliver their promises (as explained why in the book of Jeremiah 10:23). Solomon rightly said, "Man has dominated man to his injury" (Ecc 8:9)... Not even a democracy can acheive simple human ideals - we are all suffering from our own government.written 2nd May 2005
There is a superlative government promised in the book of Daniel Chapter 2: Verse 44 - look it up!
Christians advocate this government when they recite the "our Father" prayer (Matthew 6:10)
There are prophecies also in Daniel 7:14 and Revelations 11:15, & 21:3&4
I may be apathetic in worldy affairs but I am active in a spiritual hope for the world, (paid for with Christ's one-off blood sacrifice; Rev. 5:9&10)
I learnt about this government by doing a personal bible study with a jehovah's Witness - I realise I might sound like a religious nutter but this is seriously the only REAL hope promised for us. Because of what I have learnt I can put faith in God's Kingdom/government - It has been promised anyway even if you don't vote :-D
RKP replies: So you have more faith in something that you don't know even exists than something that does? Ridiculous.written 3rd May 2005
Tony D. replies: A theocracy is a scary thing! A system of governance based upon dogmatic rather that rationalistic principles terrifies me.written 3rd May 2005
Al replies: You're entitled to your opinions but esentially you're happy to ignore all rational thought, science and politics for faith in something that constantly let people down.
Which, come to think of it, is a bit like voting labour.written 3rd May 2005
David replies: I notice Al, like many people, is happy to refer to this as ignoring rational thought without providing any evidence of what rational thought is being ignored. While I didn't write that post, I won't be voting for the same reason. And just because RKP doesn't know it exists, doesn't mean we don't, just as the fact that you might not understand complex numbers doesn't mean that I don't. We have all learned and come to understand different things, and the one who ignores rational thought isn't the one who has come to a different conclusion than you - it's the one who refuses to ask the question in the first place.
If you want to think rationally and scientifically, you can consider things like whether life has ever been observed to appear without originating from previously existing life, how a bunch of desert nomads knew about quarantining and the importance of burying faeces, things that were unknown to the major civilisations in the world at the time, how the writer of the book of Job knew that the Earth was round and 'hung upon nothing', which was also contradictory to the popular theories in the world at the time, and how Daniel knew that the then-ruling power of Babylon would be defeated by the Medes and the Persians, who would in turn be defeated by the Greeks, whose king would die at the height of his power and be replaced by four weaker kings.written 3rd May 2005
cinsky replies: Since we're quoting from the bible and using it as the DEFINATIVE:
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.written 3rd May 2005
Tiger43 replies: To Poster.....Just vote you idiot. What do you think all those young men in the last world war died for? So you could find some pathetic excuse not to vote. Fortunately, my dad came out of it alive. If he saw your verbal crap in this forum, he`d probably wonder if this generation was ever worth fighting for.written 3rd May 2005
Al replies: How do these reference to historical events relate to science?
I don't understand the significance.
What's the big mystery surrounding nomads understanding quarantening? A few decades of trial and error could work that one out.
Burying faece? Again, I don't understand the significance. A cat bury's it's faeces, it's not rocket science, it's common sence.
Perhaps the writer of the book of Job looked up in the sky and saw a bloody great bright orange thing hung in the sky and thought "oh look, maybe we're hung in the sky too".
How did Daniel know that the rulers of Babylon would be defeated? How did I know in the last three major international football tournaments that England would be defeated? God wispered it to me of course!
I'm sure you're an extriemly clever chap, many religious people are very clever, but it's hard to tear away from a belief that has been drummed into you from birth despite what you know.written 3rd May 2005
Evolution, no heaven above just stars, no hell below just the earths core. None of these things seem to mean anything because religion seems to have become 'flexible'.
Ezekiel replies: cinsky
a) Yes.written 3rd May 2005
c) Taking offence means they're not interested.
d) Your friend is wrong. Canadians are fair game.
f) Your friend is right.
g) Some wiggle room allowed for reading glasses, but not at the altar.
h) Crucifiction, stoning, gun shots. Take your pick, but DO smite them.
i) No. You may not play football.
j) You could do that, but a public gathering is much better.
rhia replies: Personally, I follow a different faith, which has many gods som or all of which may actually not exist but in fact could be construed as archetypal representations of various aspects of the divine nature within and around all things. This system has no government in its own right, relying on personal morality and fundamental respect for all things (whether they are living or not).
...what makes you right and me wrong?
I'm happy to consider that while I know my faith to be true and real, others may consider theirs is true and real. I realise that the two faiths here are fundamentally incompatible on a purely logical and human level. Yet I still see your right to believe what you do, and still see that I don't have the right to force you to follow the guidelines of my faith.
Tell me, Are you one of those that would start a war over a religion, or one of those that understands what I've just said and see's that everyone is entitled to their view?written 4th May 2005
Al replies: You have a right to your view. The problem I have is that religion tends to cause wars.
As time goes on we learn more about the world, more about ourselves and our history and as this happens religion becomes more and more implausible and less and less people believe in a god.
If everyone got on happily believing in whatever god they liked that would be fine by me, in reality it doesn't happen and so in an ideal world everyone would be atheist. Our morality is no longer dictated by religion anyway (if it ever really has been) . It won't happen while I'm alive but it might happen one day.
As John Lennon put it...
Imagine there's no heaven,written 4th May 2005
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...
RKP replies: Go on then David - if you know God exists, prove it.
I know Tony Blair exists - I met him once.written 4th May 2005
Rambler replies: Why does politics come back to religion?
I'm no expert, and please excuse my ramblings, but is it just a question of choosing who's rules we want to obey?
As far as religion goes, does it really make sense to still be following a manifesto written thousands of years ago, regardless of which party you believe in? Things change, and at least with the attempted democratic system in the UK, you get a chance to choose which set of vague ideas you may want your leaders to attempt to stumble towards for the next 4 years. Can you imagine having to choose the party now, that you'll have to follow for the next 2 thousand years? Let's hope you get it right!
The ideas they come up with to try to win your vote may not be as basic as guidance on personal behaviour (Thou shalt not kill ; thou shalt not exceed 30 mph except on the 200yards between cameras) but if you're not careful, only the extremists will make themselves heard, and the rest of us will end up having to live with what they ask for....
Politics? - that will depend on what compromises you want to make this week, or what issues are uppermost in your mind.
Personally, I just happen to agree with Bill and Ted's philosophy - "Be excellent to each other".written 4th May 2005
Don't imagine it, go and see it applied in Congo, Rwanda, Islington etc.
Without religion you would get arbitary superstition, be it rain Gods or global warming.
Religion is one of, if not the most effective way to control the uneducated masses. Traditional Christian teachings may leave a bit to be desired but they are a huge improvement on what the great unwashed would think otherwise.written 4th May 2005
Al replies: How can you call global warming superstition? It may or may not be a real problem, but it's hardly a "superstition" of the "uneducated masses".
I hardly think you can blame the problems of Rwanda on the lack of religion, for a start Rwanda's population is roughly 75 percent christian anyway even those that don't belong to a main stream religions have their own religious beliefs.
It's these religious beliefs (mainstream or otherwise) that I dislike, although, granted the problems in Rwanda weren't sparked by a conflict of religion - I'm not claiming ALL wars are.written 4th May 2005
Al replies: Rambler;written 4th May 2005
tiger43 replies: Get thee behind me religion!!written 4th May 2005
I bet that none of the respondants to my post actually looked up or were familiar with the verses I quoted. Everyone - (at one time me included) -has such heavily entrenched ideas about what it says in the bible, however very few actually bother to read it for themselves to gain the accurate knowledge it offers.
(see Psalm 10:4; 9:19; John 3:17)
To answer everyone's individual greivances with God would not only take time & effort on my part but also effort on YOUR part to look up material in God's 'manifesto' for YOURSELVES.
I am only a humble human being who would like to share the benefit of the key bible knowledge that I have learned -
the "air" of Cyberspace proves to be an inappropriate domain for the truth to be communicated.(2 Corinthians 4:4 Ephesians 2:2). I regret trying to tell YOU like this but I love my fellow man and I want YOU to know before the critical times we live in really start to deteriorate (2nd Tim 3:1-5).
Contrary to Al's assumption I did not "have religion drummed into me since birth", (my dad espoused communist ideals). I don't pretend to be clever or wise, I am still learning... However none of this discounts my abilty to be rational and logical as well as observe spiritual truth.
(e.g. Cause & effect; Galatians 6:7;2&3)
Isaac Newton beleived in the Kingdom; he understood the bible and rejected church doctrines. He is not the only scientist who embraced and researched spiritual truth as well as empirical observation.
(Matthew 11:25; 1 Cor.1:18-21;Jeremiah 8:9; 1 Timothy & 4:8 Romans 8:9)
The intellectually humble are able to gain spiritual truth.
To reply to all comments generally: Jesus said what is the identifying mark of a true Christian is @ John 13:35. Love.
'God is Love' (1 John 4:8).
You can't see love; Love is not rational. Does that mean love does not exist?
If people followed the Divine command written at Matthew 7:12 - can YOU all ask YOURSELVES, would conditions on the planet be improved?
Some breif direct replies I can make:
cinsky - you eruditely quoted statutes of the Mosaic law, which had logic & purpose in primitive times, however it was done away with when, according to prophets, (e.g.Isaiah 53), the promised Messiah, Jesus (the)Christ came to spread the message about the Kingdom of God.
JC demonstrated how spiritual rule would work on earth with practical demonstrations of love, healing and resurrection from the dead.
The ancient Mosaic laws were thus replaced. See 2nd Corinthians 3:7-11-18; Romans 7:6&7; Galatians 5:18-24.
I thank you for your confidence in my ability to answer you - I attribute any ability to God's Higher Wisdom and spirit and wish your confidence in God too. (Psalm 146:3; Joshuah 21:45)
Tiger43 - I'm sorry your Dad (and previous generations) had to go through what they did - Despite manipultive propoganda, war does not eliminate war.
Your Dad braveley did what he believed was best but God's kingdom promises No More War - see Micah 4:3&4 & Isaiah 2:4.
God's government promises @ Revelation 21:3&4 & John 5:28&29 will do more than voting for temporary, limited, mortal governments.
rhia - The bible does not forbid people to think. God gave us free will as well as commandments.
My quoting bible references along with useful information is not imposing beliefs onto anyone. If you believe in many god's you might enjoy the theosophical comparison of bible knowledge.
(God's spirit is Freedom - 2nd Corinthians 3:17 & John 8:32)
Concerning Chrisitian teaching and war/violence, please read what the bible says: Matt 26:52, Isaiah 2:2-4; Luke 6:27,28.
And NB Not all "Christians" are truly Christian, as Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23
Not many people know that thousands of JWs were persecuted in death camps in ("Christian") Nazi Germany for not renouncing their faith in the bible and for not involving themselves in worldly affairs.
Politics and Christianity are in [spiritual] opposition (James 4:4; John 17:16 & 18:36). This is another reason why, as I Christian, I stay away from voting.
Another fact, in addition to David's comments; Isaiah named Cyrus & predicted, 200 years in advance, the exact method by which the Babylonians were defeated by Cyrus' army in 607 BC.
The accurate bible knowledge that I have touched on is of great value - it could even save YOUR life but meantime Iit offers comfort, hope and a way of dealing with the obvious iniquities of the present systems of worldly human governments
I wish everyone could see past the mundane, present reality and understand what is going to be possible with God's kingdom.
It is not scary; it is hopeful and it is going to satisfy the need of every single individual on this planet - eternally; something that no disappointing, imperfect, humnan government is capable of.
I urge anyone who reads this to set aside an hour and actually look up the verses quoted in context.
Love & Peace to you all,written 6th May 2005